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Roberto
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xx MetaDrax's CNH Map Pack
« Thread started on: Dec 8th, 2011, 3:54pm »

Ok Meta, I'll post my suggestions or bugs for your maps in this thread. As always I can only test the maps with a maximum of 15vs15 bots.

I played all your maps, they have good bot support and it's fresh to add support to some CNH maps.

Central to Ashes worked fine and all the others and I think firestorm haves a nice defense in AI while playing ctf because of all the bot snipers. And the changes you made to Firestorm are good too, they still walk sometimes directly into lava so they can barely reach the enemy base. I still have to make my own Firestorm edit because I plan to make that for biomod too but don't worry, I'll name it differently it so it doesn't confuse anyone.

One thing I noticed is that in some maps you did not add a target object to the repair objective. The bots also need to have a target object in that repair objective or else they don't know what to repair.
One example is the two inventories at vehicle station in Central to Ashes.

And I think you need to tweak the locations where bot wait for passengers in Central to Ashes AIV, they crashed too often and most of the times they don't even wait for passengers because they wasted too much time trying to reach the vehicle objectives and because of that they will go alone or crash. I'll post some images to show you what I mean. And one more thing you should know, when you add markers for the vehicle paths don't add the markers too low or the vehicles will bump into mountains or bases and do not add them too high.

If you add the markers too high, if the bots run out of vehicle energy they will stop until they have enough energy and then they will try to reach the next objective. That's why you see them sometimes not going directly at the next marker. Jump into the HAPC, shrike, bomber whatever and see where they often stop then lower the markers which cause this.

And here's another thing, replace your original hud script with this script to see the bot objectives while observing them in game:
http://www.4shared.com/file/D4boG1tj/hud.html

- Meta Edit - Too many large pics. Removed tags to be easier on eyes.
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2587/screen2m.png
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/420/screen3mr.png
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8210/screen4u.png
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3176/screen5zq.png
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6051/screen7ie.png
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3314/screen8o.png
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7096/screen9p.png
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8601/screen10u.png
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5767/screen11e.png
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5196/screen12u.png
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/896/screen1ss.png

« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 7:57pm by MetaDrax » User IP Logged

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xx Re: MetaDrax's maps
« Reply #1 on: Dec 8th, 2011, 4:29pm »

Nice reply. A lot of things I already know, and 1-2 small things I learned.

The lack of repair targets is likely Overreach AIV. That was an early attempt, before I developed a solid map making/editing procedure. I started by moving invs, because I didn't know how to add invs to a team. I thought the repair objectives would work, but I guess not. Good thing to learn, and I can use building bot objectives (before adding AIOs) as reference. Technically with my new procedure, I already 95% prevented myself from having to add repair objectives (without targets).

Central to Ashes AIV is... actually a failure that was recycled and released to pad the map count. No matter what I did, the terrain gave HAPCs tons of trouble. I had bigger problems when the bots couldn't even fight in the original big tower in Ashes to Ashes. Let alone walking around on the terrible terrain (for bots). I ended up wasting too much time, and then at the last 2-4 hours I decided to just make it playable.

I'll admit, the only maps I considered serious was Equinox AI and Abominable AI. Firestorm was intended to be a very entertaining joke map from the beginning.

Overreach AIV, aside from being an unrefined start for editing, is too big. The bots end up walking in the middle sections and combat drags a bit because their combat numbers are thinned out. If I made it only 1 tower, it would have been what Central to Ashes was trying to be.

In fact, I am considering remaking Overreach with only 1 tower. Later.

The CTF maps I'm working on... let's just say half of them suffer from being too big. Nothing I can really do. At least crashing HAPCs is not a problem for two maps, and not usually a prob for the 3rd. The 4th... I just took the AIOs out. 100% failure rate.

Honestly to me, Katabatic AIV, Thin Ice AIV and somewhat Raindance AIV are still the best maps for good combat-to-size-occurrence ratio. They do not have terrain that is terrible for bots.

Oh well, my new editing GUI has been improved, and allows even faster editing because everything is categorized to serve as global reminders while working on bot AIOs. Too bad Reversion is just too darn big and no amount of weight changing is making it... epic like Katabatic.

I am in fact, going nuts.

Only thing keeping me semi-sane is the fact that HAPCs can land and let bots board easily on flat-ish ground, and SOMETIMES by putting the AIO behind a hill, they will lift off the vpad very high and land perfectly. It did not work often enough for Central to Ashes.
« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2011, 4:33pm by MetaDrax » User IP Logged

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xx Re: MetaDrax's maps
« Reply #2 on: Dec 8th, 2011, 4:57pm »

A solution for making the bots use only vehicles to reach their target is blocking all the paths that they can use to walk or fly to the enemy base. For example a huge forcefield or object in the middle of the map. You can remove that object after you built the nav graph and then you can build the LOS. The bots should only use vehicles now and you make them go where you want with the paths. I got this from asking Lagg a while ago how did he made the bots use only vehicles in the Military Industrial Complex map, I plan to do this in Sanctuary at the moment and more maps if it's necessary.

And you are right here, it's not hard to add good bot support but it really takes some time and testing.
The bots often have problems with objective locations, repairing, attacking or reaching stuff, or vehicle paths and all needs fixing. Sometimes some maps are really troublesome for the bots...

Oh and thanks for the compliments on katabatic, raindance and thin ice! I hope my next AIV maps can be equally enjoyable.
I think my favourite map from you so far has to be Equinox AI, it's very fun.

By the way, another suggestion if you don't mind, when you do paths for bombers or patrolling shrikes, make sure they can fly above the enemy base a few times so they don't jump from the vehicle right when they reach the enemy base. If you look at katabatic, raindance, armpit for example you will see that there are plenty of markers for them to fly a couple of times above the base.

Also, I see that you got a few deploying errors in Firestorm, if you press the console button you will get messages when bots have problems.
Here is the way to properly make bots deploy stuff, and how bots look when you use deploy objectives:
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xx Re: MetaDrax's maps
« Reply #3 on: Dec 8th, 2011, 5:23pm »

Well, thanks for those pics on deploying. That explains a lot.

Yes, I know about Firestorm having 2 pulse sensors that can't deploy, I guess I can fix it now... er later.

The bomber paths on Central to Ashes were short because I got tired of working on that map. That was just lazy on my part. Archipelago, Acid Rain, and Reversion all have 2-3 passes for shrikes and bombers. Acid Rain being the best map out of the set I am working on... Ugh, the only thing I can actually be proud of.

I have changed Reversion from 90% air vehicles, to 90% mortar and ground pound, to 90% AHPC drops, and now to 70% mortars and 30% shrikes. The missing % are all things to not care for.
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xx Re: MetaDrax's maps
« Reply #4 on: Dec 8th, 2011, 5:43pm »

Ah don't be so harsh on yourself Meta, you certainly did some good stuff with those maps and it sounds like you are already improving your editing for Archipelago, Acid Rain, and Reversion.

I also think all my old maps really needed some changes so I removed the links and I plan to edit them again, in my opinion my 60% defense&repair 30% attack and 10% other objectives weight balance works good. My old maps are not really like this and that's why I need to do them again, and probably add more random objectives and paths.

You did a pretty good job on making the bots offensive! I imagine the chaos there is when they play 32vs32.
We now finally have some CNH maps too thanks to you!
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xx Re: MetaDrax's maps
« Reply #5 on: Dec 8th, 2011, 5:51pm »

Oh and with you adding bot support too I hope we will have plenty of maps to play with Lagg's bots.

I enjoyed your maps and I think everyone else who visits this site will too! I am waiting for your next maps, and I hope you don't mind if I add them to my Tribes 2 Ultimate pack.
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xx Re: MetaDrax's maps
« Reply #6 on: Dec 9th, 2011, 07:51am »

I'm not sure if you knew this but you can customize your bots if you open LaggsDefault3_ai.cs


//these varibles should be customized for each specific mission to enhance game play
//these are generic settings for lazy ai coders (like me) - Lagg...
$aiVehicleWaitTime = 35000;// - time (ms) ai bomber/havoc pilot waits for passengers
$aiNeedARideTaskTime = 300000;// - max time (ms) ai will pilot a havoc
$aiMPBSelfDestructTime = 300000;// - max time (ms) ai will pilot a MPB else BOOM! (a safety)


$AIClientLOSTimeout = 15000; //how long a client has to remain out of sight of the bot
//before the bot "can't see" the client anymore...

$AIClientMinLOSTime = 8000; //how long a bot will search for a client - was 10000 - Lagg...


Try playing with these settings and see how it works!
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xx Re: MetaDrax's CNH Map Pack
« Reply #7 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 02:03am »

Something has been bugging me with the random AI script. You fixed it in your newer release, but since I still use your old maps, I wonder if there is some conflict.

A lot of .mis files use the old filename... and since they are all the same so far... possible problem.

exec("scripts/xRandomAIGame.cs");

I am considering to release my map packs with my version of the random script, which will have a slightly different file name, and remove the random voice pitches because I don't really like them. Maybe as "xRandomAIGameMeta.cs", and of course in all my .mis files.

Also, in the file I have, this line has a "space" that shouldn't be there.

$RandomBotGenSuffix[0] = " ";

It always bugged me to see odd spaces in the kill messages, but I can't fix it until I rename the scripts file in every .mis that uses it.

I remember you said you removed the random skill modifier, and the version of Katabatic AIV.mis I have "modified on " 11/8/11, said by the file viewer, does not seem to have any code for random bot skills.

The xRandomAIGame.cs modified date is 9/10/11.
I don't think I have your fixed one. Or maybe there are too many since each map has its own set of scripts in a file...

You may want to give me an idea of when you removed it, if you remember, and possibly the general area of what that code looks like if you figure out when and where you removed it.

Otherwise, I'm in for a lot of random detective work.
« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 02:15am by MetaDrax » User IP Logged

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xx Re: MetaDrax's CNH Map Pack
« Reply #8 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 02:23am »

I think I found it... FORTUNATELY, I had your old Thin Ice file.

This xRandomAIGame.cs file modified on 11/28/2010 says...

function AIConnection::onAIConnect(%client, %name, %team, %skill, %offense, %voice, %voicePitch)
{
if(%skill $= "")
%skill = getRandom();



The file on 9/10/2011 says...


function AIConnection::onAIConnect(%client, %name, %team, %skill, %offense, %voice, %voicePitch)
{
if(%skill $= "")
%skill = %client.getSkillLevel();


So... woohoo? I hope that was it...
« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 02:34am by MetaDrax » User IP Logged

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xx Re: MetaDrax's CNH Map Pack
« Reply #9 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 07:30am »

Oh, well I don't really remember when I did edit the xRandomAIGame.cs but I'm sure that for a few months the script had random bot script levels, and I had to change that later so it wouldn't be random.

Just use the file which haves the client.getSkillLevel in edit your stuff how you want, pitch and so on, renaming it to something else would be a good idea. I'll also have to delete that script from every map, and remove the annoying space you discovered.

I'll make the download for that script optional, and I'll put it separately on my maps thread. I also have to make several of them with more bot names, would be pretty nice.
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xx Re: MetaDrax's CNH Map Pack
« Reply #10 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 10:47am »

You know... I am really curious how you found the right code to put in to make the bots not random. When I did a search for the code segment, it was only found for something related to the bots piloting tank turrets.

Comparing the original Dynamix ai.cs with LaggsDefault3_ai.cs led me nowhere.

Did you figure it out yourself? Or did Keen, the author of the script, tell you? Someone else? Keen's original version on TribesNext is 100% the getRandom.

I am also assuming that setting the %voicePitch = 1.0; is how I get all voices to be normal. Am I right?

The curiosity is not letting me sleep peacefully.
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xx Re: MetaDrax's CNH Map Pack
« Reply #11 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 4:34pm »

Put this:
%voicePitch = 1.0;
%client.voicePitch = %voicePitch;


Instead of:

%voicePitch = 1 - ((getRandom(20) - 10)/100);
%client.voicePitch = %voicePitch;

in your xRandomAIGame.cs

And %skill gets the current skill settings from the client ( %skill = %client.getSkillLevel(); ).

I looked at Lagg's scripts and I thought I should use that instead of that random skill thing, the skill should be now as you set it and not random by using %skill = getRandom().

« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 4:35pm by Roberto » User IP Logged

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